The Office of Road and Rail have issued West Coast Railways with a certificate of revocation for the exemption of its hinged door rolling stock with immediate effect.
Back in December, West Coast asked for a review of the ORR’s refusal to grant it further exemption.
At the time, WCRC said it remained committed to working with the ORR to find a long term solution to secure its heritage services on the main line. Options were being looked at, such as an appeal, and a new exemption application.
West Coast Railways run a number of main line tours as well as The Jacobite trains in Scotland.
RailAdvent have contacted West Coast Railways and the ORR for comment.
Responses
Well today proves what a fuss over nothing this has been.
WCRC run their first daily tour this weekend and today moved loco & stock south from Carnforth in readiness. It’s a CDL fitted rake of MK2 aircons.
So it isn’t the end of WCRC, wheels do keep turning….
Allways been a cowboy company .
It not right that west coast are blaming ORR for loss of jobs other companies in danger of folding and Scottish tourism being hit hard it’s down to west coast rail no one else it’s them that have know about having to fit CDL since 1999 but done nothing and in fact refused to fit it WCR say they are willing to come to an arrangement with ORR so put your money were your mouth is and fit CDL ..
Thank god the ORR is taking this cowboy outfit off the mainline.
Working in the industry I’ve seen first hand WCR’s attitude to safety. It’s horrifying. Whine all you like, but I’m glad they won’t be around to isolate TPWS’s on a whim anymore, depart stations with doors open, employ drivers with dementia………and the rest.
Maybe the passengers will be disappointed, but if it means everyone else can travel safer on the network it’s a good thing.
Good riddance.
We managed without this rubbish locking system for hundreds of years, sometimes people should take responsibility for their own actions. Heritage is Heritage, as it was when the train was built. You cannot apply modern rules to old railways.
If people did take responsibility for their actions, yes. Does that happen? No. So they need nannied.
If they ran on old railways, yes. However they don’t. They run on the main network. I don’t get your point regarding that, or ‘heritage is heritage’ either.
The law dating from 1999 as laid down by parliament says otherwise. It says you must for CDL to all hinged door passenger carriages. Full stop.
All other operators of heritage carriages on Network Rail have complied and fitted CDL. These trains run most days across the U.K. and run at up to 100mph.
Why should West Coast, with its pretty dire safety record be allowed to do the opposite and flout a long standing safety requirement.
So from your inside info how many accidents/deaths have they caused? Zero is the answer
Uhm, no.
And additionally, i’m sure we’re all aware of the near miss with the HST, potentially involving hundreds of people. What’s your answer? Wait until their luck runs out and then ask why nobody intervened sooner to prevent loss of life? Genius.
I work as a steward for RTC and we take safety very seriously.We have strict rules from West coast railways to adhere to as well as RTC. Yes people do try to look out of windows, mainly for photos,but do understand when asked to return to there seats.We steward all the doors of the train and the guard s are very efficient. To convert present stock to central locking would cost millions and would require a power supply either from a deisal or a generator car. Those companies who’ve signed up have mark two stock and have very few coaches. WCR have several rakes of stock for the south the north and Scotland. There will be many redundantcies. One simple solution is that these doors have a key lock.Just give the stewards a key each and lock the doors when departing a station. Bring back common sense.
It’s been written into Law since 1999 that CDL must be fitted to hinged door passenger carriages.
All other heritage operators are complying. Only West Coast decided to refuse / delay etc. They tried going legal, they lost as the law is quite clear.
They have had a few serious incidents of people / doors in last few years. Plus their various prohibition notices for breaches of safety laws & agreed working. Plus Wooton Bassett and wilful isolation of a mandatory safety system.
Read the court judgement, it’s very enlightening.
ORR are not the bad guys.
There seems to be a widely held assumption that Central Door Locking (CDL) is a completely safe system. Modern passenger stock, for example, trains operated by Greater Anglia have CDL. What makes them safe is that they have selective door opening. That means that if a train stops where there are short platforms only the doors alongside the platform will open. I have recently experienced a situation on a mainline charter fitted with CDL (not selective) that demonstrated that CDL is not foolproof.
We stopped in a station to water the loco and the Guard released the CDL to allow the train Manager access to the platform. I was standing in a vestibule and saw the illuminated “Door Locked” sign go out so I opened the door and stepped onto the platform, quickly followed by about twenty other passengers. Within a few minutes we were shouted at by the train crew telling us to re-board as we should not have been allowed off the train at that time. Fortunately, there was no risk to safety in this incident.
However, had part of the train stopped short of the platform, possibly after dark, once the CDL is released passengers would be free to open a door and put themselves at risk. You could argue that having a secondary bolt on the door closely monitored by a Steward reduces the risk.
Moving onto the current situation. I accept ORR set the rules. I accept that they believe CDL reduces risk and that it will be installed on all mainline passenger stock. What I find difficult to accept is their action to immediately revoke the exemption. The fact that this has dragged on for 19 years is the fault of ORR and its predecessors. They have granted exemptions over the years and that includes the period whilst the Judicial Review took place. ORR must have been aware that not all train operators would spend money before the result of the Judicial Review was known. (24th Dec 2023) Now that the Charter industry knows without doubt that CDL must be fitted the ORR should agree tight timescales with the train operators for CDL to be installed. This will allow the Charter industry to continue operating this summer albeit with fewer trains available. Withdrawing the exemptions overnight will cause major inconvenience to passengers who are already booked to travel as well as consequential loss of many jobs in the Charter and Leisure industry.
ORR and its predecessors are to blame for allowing this issue to drift for far too long. This is not about an urgent safety issue; I am not aware of any serious injury or passenger fatality on any heritage charter train in recent times. This is an opportunity for ORR to demonstrate some leadership in keeping the trains running.
David
Of all the heritage operators, only 1 has a problem. Only 1 hasn’t taken any steps to become compliant. Only 1 has been grounded.
All the others, every single one of them is complying and adapting their stock. Some are already fully compliant.
West Coast have had around 4 years warning that CDL was to be one mandatory from March 2023. They chose to make no preparations, no updates to their stock and to block, frustrate and challenge in court instead.
They brought this upon the themselves.
Their record in safety breaches is abysmal and stands out within the industry.
I totally agree with you west coast has stuck there heads in the sand and refused to fit central locking they say it would cost to much if the idiot’s had fitted it in 1999 it would have be a fraction of the cost but no the owner and management thought they could get away with doing it and knew better I am not sorry for them at all the have brought this on there self .
How on earth can WCRC Comitt to running anything this year as they have insufficient time & notice to retro fit their rolling stock.
They’ve had since 1999.
ORR first warned of a March 2023 deadline for CDL (or agreed transition period) 3 or 4 years ago.
West Coast chose to refuse to fit CDL in that time and took legal action instead. They lost.
All other heritage carriage operators have either fitted CDL already (eg. LSL/Saphos and Riviera or are in the process of doing so eg. Vintage Trains/VSOE).
All those people whinging about the ORRs decision would do well to remember that the ORR has been saying for several years now they would not extend exemptions against CDL fitment unless it was absolutely necessary as part of a fully detailed and underway plan to fit a CDL system.
Belmond for example got an extension to their exemption precisely because they have an detailed engineering plan in place which is ramping up and will see the entire fleet dealt with over the next couple of years or so.
WCR by contrast had no such plane drawn up and have instead been wasting time arguing they are some sort of special case and should receive an indefinite exemption from CDL rules.
That was not and still isn’t acceptable to the ORR
This entire problem is wholly of WCRs making – and if anyone wants to complain about it they should be directing their complaints solely to WCRs upper management and owner!
Originally I read that an exemption was given until 28th February now it’s immediate. I guess the ulterior motive is to slip it out while the mainstream media are preoccupied with the Post Office scandal to minimise criticism. Well if The Jacobite is cancelled and indirectly people’s livelihoods are affected or there are redunancies in the heritage sector including travel companies I think there will be an adverse public reaction. This is the same organisation that on the national network has inflated costs by millions by refusing to sanction short 3rd rail extensions and additional safety measures for 25kv overhead systems extensions, even contacting a specialist rail industry magazine to tell them they had no idea why they had done the latter! As a taxpayer I am infuriated how they get away with raising the safety bar at big expense with the minimum of justification and without apparent independent auditing. The ORR desperately needs scrutiny like the Post Office.
This case stems back to the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 (so before ORR existed and the law was created by the government of the day) which place limitations / requirements on the continued use of mark 1 vehicles on the mainline (regulation 4) and require a Central Door Locking (CDL) system to be used on all hinged door stock in passenger use in the mainline (Regulation 5).
These are not new rules, it is simply that decisions have been made and published over the past 3 or 4 years to discontinue the exemptions to CDL. West Coast are the only heritage operator to have refused to comply.
Why does the ‘nanny state’ have to cater for those who lack common sense? It spoils everything for the rest of us
Aye, those bloody woke mob wanting safe trains. Ruining it for the rest of us.
Yeah who needs safety measures. Let’s get back to good old Victorian values.
See you in the workhouse. Unless the cholera gets us.
Everyone wants everything to be safe. Many simple things are dangerous if used the wrong way. You can get a nasty cut from a piece of paper. Or you open or close your car door inappropriately.
Despite risk analysis techniques, today, less people are able to apply “Dynamic Risk Assessments” known as “Common Sense” in old days, the sense of course which is really not common.
The health and safety industry is a self perpetuating industry always searching to expand its reaches and importance. Unfortunately for them Darwinism will always win.
People do have to take basic responsibility for themselves, and their are many factors such as age, ability and cognisance.
Worse, DEI, (Diversity, Equality and Inclusion) gives everyone the impression they should be able to take part in what they like. Some things are just not for some folk however much they’d like to do it. That’s why I’m not a brain surgeon, climbed Everest or been a singer in a Rock and Roll band. That’s also why I’m not a member of the “27 Club”.
Why can’t these official bodies just get an injection of common sense. Way too many jobsworths out there.
Sheeesh…..
At the end of the day till we have heard from ORR and or westcoast rail we will not know the rules that ORR has placed on westcoast to be able too run if they have too get mk 2 stock this will not be suitable with the steam locomotive they have as mark 2 are air brakes and locomotive are vacuum so we wait to hear .
That’s simple now:
Fit and use CDL or stay grounded.
Why were these coaches deemed safe when built in the 1950s or 1960s but not now? Is it down to higher speeds or are people more stupid now, or can’t they deal with this stock being only used to self opening or push button doors?
In the 1950s and 60s passengers weren’t required to wear a seat belt in a car and drinking driving laws were very hard to enforce. Standards and expectations in most areas of life have moved on.
Nothing really to do with the subject, but, please, can those who make comments learn the basic rules of punctuation and grammar. Must of the commentators above have not the slightest idea of how to write correct English!!
This is not only a rail-related problem, it exists across social media. I came across the problem in a large proportion of job applications I had to review.
A general falling in the standards of grammar.
*most !!
You can blame the use of mobile phone use and schooling standards for tha lack of pronunciation and spelling .
“must of the commentators’
How trying to be clever and making yourself look a **** in one easy lesson.
I am an avid train enthusiastic I have been on many a train journey but nothing untoward has happened I have been on the jacobite which was wonderful I don’t see any thing wrong with the coaches perhaps they could be made to open on the outside only and take the handle off the outside and only open with a key that station staff have keep the railways running 🏃♀️
BR man ex Carnforth
I worked in the goods link at Carnforth so had little to do with passenger work I can o ly assume that in this day and age its difficult to work with health and safety to get it right privatisation has not made it easy were in BR days it was just excepted that people would be sensible when tralling byy train also with sliding window notification stickers told of the dagers of leaning out of them , this also applied to the doors.
Ken McGill 10a
This a much bigger problem than most people realise as this will end up being passed on to the whole of the heritage rail industry and not just standard gauge, but also narrow gauge , as the HSE will see that the doors ‘could’ be opened on these lines as well and demand that they use central door locking systems.
But it gets worse, the first being that there are only a certain amount of central door locking coaches around and the prices for these will go up, the second is that a lot of mainline and heritage steam engines are not air braked, but instead use vacuum braking systems, so any central door locking coaches would have to be adapted to work with steam engines.
The whole heritage rail industry needs to stand up and present it’s case to the HSE and Government, or else it will be the end of steam permanently.
We need to get the The Heritage Railway Association to get behind this http://www.hra.uk.com
You expect people to be sensible????
I think that you are expecting far too much from them!!!
The rest of the heritage industry moved on decades ago, and so has fully CDL fitted stock and the correct brakes lol. It’s literally only WCRC left.
Thankfully the ORR are quite happy for heratage rail to continue without central door locking provided that they don’t run in passenger service above 25mph.
All charter stock however will need to be retrofitted which isn’t as big a deal as WCR are making it out to be, other charter operators have already done it
The big railway doesn’t want heritage trains. Simple as that.
I asked about the jacobite journey with West coast railways for June this year as I’d heard there was issues. There reply was not to reply but to delete my comment. As a 59 year old I was shocked at this. But didn’t want to book again and have it cancelled again just 2 days before I was supposed to go. As this was my whole reason for going to fort William
I’ve watched new modern train stock being tested and the doors open off the platform which is not safe, there have been other incidents where doors on new stock have come open in tunnels due to pressure, and passengers dragged to there death driver only operating trains, so don’t tell me that slam doors with bolts and stewards are not safe.
There have been more incidents with modern trains since privatisation, some you don’t read or hear about unless your in the industry.
I worked on the railway in the 1960 I saw first hand a man was looking out the door with his son somehow the door flew open and the child fell out onto the opposite lines I pulled the emergency cord the child was not hurt and was put back on the train but if a train had been coming the outcome would have been different this was on the main line just north of lancaster
Sadly comon sense amongst passengers, not to stand near a door or lean out of moving windows has deserted today’s traveller. This deterioration must be accomodated if it means denying these tourists the experience most look for. A heritage steam railway.
Nothing like Jumped Up little Hitlers like Elf and Safety to destroy anything that works and helps with Jobs and Holidays Industry.
If ORR moved the goalposts, by changing rules which as far as we know have been in place for many years, then surely they should have to fund the upgrade themselves.
I’ve got a good plan for tours to travel on this year and have 2 booked already, but if WCR aren’t going to be able to provide locos and coaches for the tours then there’s no telling what’s going to end up happening. The first i’m booked on takes place in just over 2 weeks time on 27th January.
Yet another example of health and safety rules gone mad. When has anyone fallen out of a train with slam door stock? This stupid ruling could put a good company out of business.
Haven’t the H&E bureaucrats got anything better to do????
Never heard of the “Tamworth Triangle”?
You’re aware that there was 100s of deaths in the late 20th century from people sticking heads out windows and slam doors, right?
WCR were allowed to run heritage stock on the basis that they had secondary door locks operated by stewards only on the Jacobite. They then disregarded the safety measure they suggested, and had passengers work them instead, therefore having their operating license revoked.
WCR have an appauling safety record. Now the slam doors, and previously disabling safety features on locos, almost causing major crashes and potentially 1000s of deaths. This ruling should not come as a surprise. Every other mainline heritage stock operator has proper central locking or plans to install it, WCR refuse.
A lack of central door locking isn’t just about the stupidity of the person operating the door.
-What about the staff and their trauma when they have to deal with someones beheaded body from a head stuck out the window?
-What about the young girl who fell from a viaduct at night thinking it was her own, very ill lit station?
-What about the people on the platform who don’t expect a door to slam right into their faces as the train flies past?
-What about young children who don’t know any better being encouraged by their idiot parents?
You need to read the court judgement from December last year that WCRC lost against ORR.
WCRC have had a few people exit moving trains in recent years, luckily without injury.
This case stems back to the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 which place limitations / requirements on the continued use of mark 1 vehicles on the mainline (regulation 4) and require a Central Door Locking (CDL) system to be used on all hinged door stock in passenger use in the mainline (Regulation 5).
These are not new rules, it is simply that decisions have been made and published over the past 3 or 4 years to discontinue the exemptions to CDL. West Coast are the only heritage operator to have refused to comply.
If the ORR requires central locking they should lobby the HSE or Govt to pay the extensive sum it’ll cost, rather than threaten the viability of the company, and enjoyment of the nostalgic public.
🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃
Any possibility that passengers might be assumed not to be so moronic that they’ll open doors in a speeding train? Couldn’t they be reminded of the risks bwfore getting onboard?
Load of bollocks, HSE gone mad. When I was a lad I travelled regularly from S Wales to N Wales on my own from age 10 upwards, I knew that it would be dangerous to open the train door when it was moving!
The amount of money WCRC have made their is no excuse no to of had Central door locking fitted it’s just poor management sucking up the profits they could even raisie ticket prices just to pay for it
Unless West Coast railways can find Central door locking stock. They won’t be able to run on the mainline
Wich they won’t
What does this mean for upcoming tours of WCRC?
Wouldn’t surprise me if the affected tours get either postponed or axed entirely. What’s worrying is im booked on the first WCME tour of 2024 which runs on 27th January and ideally I don’t want it to end up being worked by a diesel. I’ll need to know from RTC within the next 15 days on if it’s even going to run.
I don’t think changing the steam loco to diesel will make any difference to the lack of central locking on the coaching stock. The Jan 27 Euston to Carlisle excursion will put a steam engine on the train at Carnforth, but the coaching stock will have to originate from Euston, so I’m not clear that this will be WRC owned stock
They will be postponed or cancelled
They’ll be cancelled