The 4709 Group has unveiled plans that could see steam locomotive 7027 Thornbury Castle turned into a ‘new build' Star class locomotive, however, a petition has also been launched to try and stop any of the plans going ahead.
RailAdvent broke the news last Friday confirming that The 4709 Group had purchased 7027 Thornbury Castle, which is currently based at the Great Central Railway.
This news has left the railway community divided, with some saying it's a good idea, but a lot of people have been left saddened by the news that a locomotive, which is a good way through its overhaul, is to be scrapped in favour of another locomotive. Ex-owner of 7027 Thornbury Castle, Jonathan Jones-Pratt, also released his plans to purchase the locomotive back in order to save the locomotive from being converted. Additionally, Ben Jervis, who spoke to RailAdvent (more information below) has set up a petition to try and change the project's plans.
Fast forward to today, 15th August, and the 4709 Group has confirmed its idea with 7027 Thornbury Castle is to use the boiler on its 4709 Project, whilst the rest could be used to bring a Star class into service, using locomotive 2861 as a donor loco for its boiler.
The idea was supposed to wait until plans were confirmed in September, says Richard Croucher:
“The 4709 group intended to wait until September to release details of plans for Thornbury Castle's chassis and other components. What we'd intended was to detail our intention to recreate and operate a 1930s era Star class 4-6-0 express locomotive.”
The only ‘Star' in preservation is Lode Star, which is currently at the National Railway Museum in York.
The project has also said that if a No.7 or a No. 8 boiler was to come available in the future, they could return the Star back to 7027 Thornbury Castle.
Richard said “The Star will feature authentic dished extension frames and fully external steam pipes. We are also planning the conversion in such a way that it can be easily reverted, while retaining and preserving as many original parts of Thornbury Castle as possible.”
“Should a No.7 or No.8 boiler become available, it would then be relatively straightforward to steam as Thornbury Castle again, clearly demonstrating Swindon's foresight in express locomotive design.”
“We believe this is the most realistic chance of completing 4709 in a reasonable timescale, Thornbury Castle has of running again, while also adding a 1930s era Star class to the GWR stable.”
As the news broke on Friday, Ben Jervis read about the news and was one of those were shocked to read the news.
Ben, an ex-Great Western Society volunteer & previously a member of the 5029 Nunney Castle Support Crew, soon decided to launch a petition (which you can sign / find out information here) against the project to try and convince the 4709 Group to allow the overhaul of the Castle to continue as planned.
“Since Friday night, over 500 people have signed the petition, and RailAdvent has spoken to Ben to find out his thoughts.
“Today's official announcement that a Star class would be built using Thornbury's leftovers was just as surprising and shocking. Given the reaction to the initial 7027 announcement, one would have thought that such an idea would best be laid to rest. It doesn't make sense that a group that has purchased a loco specifically to save money on boiler construction thinks it'll be able to convince anyone to give them money so an example of a loco we already have preserved can be constructed. To suggest that it could be back-converted into a Castle again isn't going to fool anyone, sadly.
“Where would the additional Castle boiler come from? And what incentive is there to go to that effort once the damage has been done?
“Restoring a Castle is one thing, but taking a Castle's boiler to use on a 47xx, turning the remains of that into a Star, and then 20 years later making a new boiler to turn it back into a Castle is ludicrous. For a group of GWR enthusiasts, it all seems incredibly out of touch.
“On Friday morning I saw the news that 7027 was to be used as a donor loco and to say that my heart sank would be an understatement. However, it soon became apparent that I wasn't the only one who had strong feelings about this issue.
“Comments on social media and railway preservation forums generally saw the same reaction: How could an active restoration be used in this way? After all, 7027 was in the process of being restored at the GCR. Some had stated that 7027 is “just another Castle”, “we have plenty of them already”. To that I say, would there be anguish if 60019 Bittern had been purchased part-way through restoration to build a replica Hush-Hush or a Thomson Pacific? Would we allow other prestigious locos to be used in this way once a restoration effort had been started? After a discussion with a friend who has a lifelong association with all things GWR and who has been an active volunteer for several decades (not to mention being a huge Castle fan), it was suggested that a petition should be started to gauge the reaction to this news. So that's what I did, and just after 9pm on Friday (12/08/22) it went live. In all honesty I didn't think that many people would be interested in it. Petitions pop up all the time and are usually met with ridicule and understandably so… I didn't even think it would reach 50 supporters. Oh, how wrong I was! 48 hours later the count was just shy of 500 supporters, that number being broken overnight with the current count sitting at 516 this morning, and approaching 600 as I write this.
“I think it is clear that there is support for 7027 Thornbury Castle to be restored in her own right. For years she has been left forlorn and abandoned under the ownership of private individuals; no fundraising or restoration efforts were ever started for this very reason. It was only in recent years when Jonathan Jones-Pratt bought the loco that things started to look up, and once it was under new ownership and being worked on at the GCR the future looked very bright. Regular updates were posted on social media, each update receiving reactions in their hundreds. If this plan is reversed and with the recent announcement from Jonathan Jones-Pratt, there is a good opportunity for a secure future with a new team of people looking after this magnificent and prestigious machine.
“However, this could also be an opportunity for the The Night Owl group to rethink their plans. I think generally most people are interested to see a new 47XX locomotive. Doing so at the expense of a Castle which apart from small fittings doesn't share any like-for-like components is a line in the sand for most. Given the reaction to these plans, I feel that it is possible for The Night Owl group to save face and find a win-win for both sides of this issue. With the hype that the 7027 development has created there are sure to be more eyes looking at The Night Owl group than ever, albeit somewhat negatively at the moment.
“This could be reversed almost in an instance if they were to say that the Castle was to be left alone and that they're looking for funds to make a correct boiler for the 47xx. The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust has shown us all that anything is possible. Let's get 7027 back in action and let's get a new boiler made for a new 47xx. Who knows, maybe they can be seen side by side in the future. Now wouldn't that be a great sight to behold?”
For years I have been looking forward to 7027 Thornberry Castle being restored to its original condition. It is very said that the 4709 want to cobble together the components for other projects.
Must remain as Thornbury Castle
Great idea. Roll on a revitalised Star, 4025 King Charles? The world is never going to be short of operational Castles.
No this is not a good idea, the castle should be restored in it`s own right. A large number of genuine steam locomotive enthusiasts who came from that era, have been hoping for a long time that 7027 would be restored. Support group and donations to that end should now be organised. I would donate some money for this.
Please add my name to the petition to save 7027 Thornbury Castle. This is a real relic of the past and really existed then not some cobbled together Star or 4709 – okay if using new parts for these projects but not at the expense of 7027 Thornbury Castle. I think it is a massive cop-out and feel very strongly about this and ever since I saw the engine at Rowley at the Peak District Railway I have been looking forward to it being completed in the near future.
The Great Western Model Railway Club and their ilk have already kitbashed enough historic locomotives into these meaningless Frankenlocos. This one was sold under a promise of restoration to its original condition, and as this isn’t happening, and the former owner wants it back, this ought to be arranged.
If people want lost classes back, they ought to build them properly, from scratch, as better orgnaisations have done and are going.
Just my thoughts on the matter, and I know that some people will take different views – please accept that different views are all part of life and are what make conversations over a pint so enjoyable…
I think that having a 47xx and a useable Star alongside the other Castles is a good compromise. How many owners have failed to get Thormbury Castle back running over how many years?
How many of the people leaping to their keyboards saying that “This or that MUST be done!” have actually put on their overalls and rolled their sleaves up working on Thornbury Castle if they feel it is so vital that this ne particular loco *must* be back in steam?
The reality is that the 47xx people have a good chance of getting their loco up and running, alongside a Star – both using a large number of parts that have run on locos in the past.
I would love to see 7027 and 4709 together. But I refuse to support the 4709 group of the GWS until this plan is reversed. The fact they were since 2019 planning to use 7027 as parts for 4709 and following the backlash came out with “wait, wait we’re going to make a Star!” is complete poppeycock! These people are in a fantasy land I don’t trust them one bit. If they did keep it as a Castle they’ll do just a little bit until the noise goes away and then let it rot.
I am gradually coming to the conclusion that there are two sorts of New Build Locomotive. One type is built from scratch using all new components – unarguably a new build. The other type is the Bitza, a recreation made from various bits from dismantled locos of other types to produce a, shall we say, representation of a lost class. GWR standardisation makes this possible, of course, but in the end it’s not quite what it appears to be, is it?
We can see a true ‘Star’. We can see a ‘Castle’ in action. Why do we need another recreation made out of non authentic parts?
This must not happen thornbury castle should be restored as a castle as thornbury castle she was getting restored this must be stoped at all costs I feel sorry fore the volunteers at the great central railway there hard work looks like its fore nothing this isnt preservation this is vandalism
if you want a new build,go for the biggy….”the great bear”!! nice to see a newbuild GWR 4-6-2,don’t you think?
start a fund…i’ll contribute!
As a lifelong steam enthusiast, who grew up with locomotives on coal trains snorting past a close to home occupational crossing, I have always been interested in the fate of individual steam engines, and if I am correct, Thornbury Castle was one of the locomotives rescued from Dai Woodhams at Barry. It has long been my belief that engines should be restored and preserved as they originally existed, and whilst I have no objection to some ex- Barry locos being used as donors to develop “missing” classes that were not represented in preservation, the destruction of Thornbury Castle to assist the creation of a 47xx does not sit well with me, especially since so much restoration has already taken place on the GCR. As someone else has emphasised, the A1 Locomotive Trust was able to finance a new boiler, to which I contributed, for Tornado, and I believe they are also awaiting delivery of a boiler from Germany for the new- build Prince of Wales.
I’ve said it before , and I’ll say it here too. If people want to build replica locomotives of classes that no longer exist, all well and good. I wish them well; but use parts which are genuinely spare or new. (as with the A1 and P2 locos) Cannibalising perfectly restorable locomotives to do so is in very bad taste. You’d have thought that the 4709 group would have wanted the correct boiler on their loco anyway. Also, if people want to see a star in action, bring out 4003 from where it’s languishing, and we can have a genuine one. Let’s have 7027 Thornbury Castle as 7027 Thornbury Castle. I’ve just signed the petition!
Sacrilege. Mr. Pratt-Jones sold it in good faith and to go against his wishes is disrespectful.